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ssaines
|  08 Aug '07 16:03 : 0 recs
Car: I agree with almost all if not all your points...but c'mon. LIke this?
I mentioned in one of my earlier posts how some had played the game for gain. That does not apply in this situation, however.
You're an intelligent guy, one of the more intelligent here perhaps. Let's discuss allowing F&M to not even be an issue to begin with!
What we're arguing about is part of the problem, not a solution. F7M is *not* a real issue. It is a phony one. BSE is real. |
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Warren BuffetCar
| 08 Aug '07 15:48 : 0 recs : edited 3 times : last edit 08 Aug '07 15:50
ssaines,
I have to disagree with Mr Car on this one. Farmers *are not* (on the whole) doing that well in the UK. There are many nations where they aren't, albeit the US has found further ways to subsidize their rich farmers with the corn-you-copia for fuel.
If the job doesn't pay enough stop whinging and get another one. Thousands of miners lost their jobs in the UK and got F-all sympathy from the farmers and their ilk. Its the same thing - progress. These people should start looking for jobs in expanding industries if theirs doesn't pay enough. They can't expect the EU or govt to keep subsidizing their loss making businesses.
Farming is a dying industry. Factory farmers these folks affected aren't! These are small farmers barely keeping a family business alive.
This has been true of many industries throughout history.... thatchers, coopers, wheelwrights, etc, etc. The economy moves on. You can't just keep whinging about how you are brassic. This is capitalism - get another job.
Farming gets showered with subsidies, and that is what causes the problems. Abolish the subsidies, return farming to the hands of capitalists rather than socialist central planners, and we'll get a shakeout of all the dead wood and we won't end up paying taxes to store enormous surpluses of food that result from over production.
WBC |
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ssaines
| 08 Aug '07 15:42 : 0 recs
Ag: I don't know what footage is being shown in the UK. Maybe much of it is library footage, but I know that the footage being shown on BBC International is fresh and at the actual site. Previously, the carcasses were not shipped by sealed trailer trucks. (In this case to Frome....an oddity in itself)(Maybe they're making cheese out of them?)
Yes, BSE *in relation to* other ailments is very low on the list. However...here's the difference from Nature's end: BSE victims would not live to breed. Hoof and Mouth ones can and do, and given the chance, in almost all cases, fully recover *with absolutely no known consequence* to the consumer.
BSE has been responsible for many awful human deaths. Do they not count?
Sunset: One of your rare and very sensible posts. No-one can change my opinioon. If I were there with Gunner, I'd sit down and talk with him, make him a tea, and try and make some sort of sense out of events.
I have to disagree with Mr Car on this one. Farmers *are not* (on the whole) doing that well in the UK. There are many nations where they aren't, albeit the US has found further ways to subsidize their rich farmers with the corn-you-copia for fuel.
There are some wealthy UK farmers who do very well. That's as much due to their inherited value of land than actual production, however. And yes, some UK farmers do very well from subsidies. But not all.
Farming is a dying industry. Factory farmers these folks affected aren't! These are small farmers barely keeping a family business alive.
As I stated prior, there's no shortage of awful things happening in the world. These farmers pale in comparison, but what prevented me from censoring the details was how much many of these farmers remind me of my father. I could not block the tears. |
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Warren BuffetCar
| 08 Aug '07 14:33 : 0 recs : edited 2 times : last edit 08 Aug '07 14:35
I think its good to give something for the farmers to moan about.
I mean, its been a couple of weeks since the floods, and its sunny now. They needed something.
If I had a penny for every farmer I've heard over the past 20 years state that "farming is on the brink of collapse in the UK" I'd be able to afford another nice big shiny 4 wheel drive and to send the kids to some poncy school, like most of these farmers do.
Apparently they can insure against things like this but "its expensive".
Of course, its expensive for me to insure my car fully comp.
WBC |
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Merlin
| 08 Aug '07 14:23 : 0 recs
I do think they are an unnecessary obscenity |
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agnostic
| 08 Aug '07 11:20 : 0 recs
It would be interesting to know how many of the media horror-shots of slaughter-piles and carcass incineration are actually library footage from 2001. |
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Waterloo Sunset
| 08 Aug '07 10:47 : 0 recs : edited 1 time : last edit 08 Aug '07 10:49
John Gunner's interview struck me as well. He was of course mourning for his herd of Cows and his Bull. I suspect you will deeply understand how it feels when one of your "pack" is killed Steve as you have dog(s). It affected me as well.
Maybe vaccination is the best way ahead. I think farmers should decide as I dont think anyone else has a better understanding of the complicated pro's and cons. I mean, in the Netherlands where they vaccinated they culled later anyway!
WS
p.s. amid all the horror being expressed by the media and public at the sight of heaps of dead cows I cannot help but think of the chicken factories and local abbatoirs that supply the food you and I eat every day. There is a heavy stench of hypocrisy in the "horror" expressed by third parties IMHO. John Gunner is real, not some emotional self indulgence from a "safe" distance |
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agnostic
| 08 Aug '07 09:14 : 0 recs : edited 2 times : last edit 08 Aug '07 09:19
saines:
Even BSE/CJD has to be taken in context.
Quote (as nearly as I can remember) from my doctor: "I have patients who've stopped eating beef because they might stand a one-in-a-million chance of contracting CJD. But some of them cheerfully carry on smoking 20 cigarettes a day, which carries at least ten times the risk of dying just as slowly and horribly, and much more painfully."
It's often a question of perception. And perceptions are too often shaped by media hysteria (shock-horror-scandal sells newspapers!). |
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ssaines
| 08 Aug '07 02:52 : 0 recs
This evening's CBC News carried interviews with various farmers involved, and some not, but one that was interviewed was John Gunner, the second affected farmer.
My God...what a decent, passionate, good man. He has obviously great pride, and has worked extremely hard. I've got a pretty thick skin, seen and been involved in a lot of nasty business in my life, and beaten cancer three times to boot and come out on top, but there's some things that get through security perimeter, and I can't help but be affected. Here's a poor man who is obviously not just in it for the money, not looking for the compensation and laughing about it (some do), and he was on the dege of tears.
Ans so was I just in empathy with the man. He reminded me so much of my now deceased father. Looks, accent, aspirations, morals and scruples.
The man appeared destroyed.
It just ain't right....The other farmers interviewed, one who was featured in a CBC Special during the last outbreak, were also distressed, some on the verge of tears.
Who can blame them?
It just ain't right..... |
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ssaines
| 07 Aug '07 21:05 : 0 recs
Ag writes: It's a contest to see how much anguish they can wring out of a fairly petty situation. I was just speaking to my aunt by phone, she lives just on the edge of the 'safety zone. She is livid. With politicians, of all stripes in the UK.
I can half understand, but as time goes on, I'm more convinced, as she is already, as it would seem many Brits, that the last thing we'll get out of this is The Truth.
And all for what? A disease that Nature actually addresses quite well left o her own devices. Wjhat I see as being a very real problem (and it boggles the senses of proportion) is that many Brits wouldn't eat meat (and Brits probably aren't alone in this) that they knew had had shots, and yet the meat they eat already is *loaded* with many external antibodies, let alone antibiotics, steroid and hormones.
The answer is very simple! For Hoof and Mouth, let it run its own course! Or: Inoculate. The EU is another matter, but if that is the case (and they can be brought around, they already have with Holland) then export directly. If this is the camel that breaks the EU back, then so be it.
This is not BSE! (That is *extremely* serious) |
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agnostic
| 07 Aug '07 19:39 : 0 recs
I'll tell you what - I'm getting fed up to the back teeth with the degree of media coverage. The first half of every BBC news bulletin is devoted to speculation. What have they found out? Why hasn't the report been made public yet? Are they trying to hide something? Could it have been the floods? Footpaths are still open! Are we going to run out of home-produced meat because farmers aren't allowed to send their animals to abattoirs? It's OK, Gordon Broon has taken personal charge of the whole thing ... cut short his holiday ... Is the company at the centre of the investigation going to make a profit out of supplying vaccine, shock, horror?
It's a contest to see how much anguish they can wring out of a fairly petty situation. Is anything else going on in the world? |
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Thoughtful
| 07 Aug '07 09:06 : 0 recs
Seems like a job creation scheme to me ssaines!
Keeps all the scientists and biochemists working, a little like accountants and tax collectors, lawyers and barristers!
As for Thoughtful, I hope they don't close the footpaths! |
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ssaines
| 07 Aug '07 04:30 : 0 recs
Then again it has to be proven, anyway why place a lab doing foot and mouth vaccine research in an agricultural area?
Or is that a silly question? It's an entirely relevant question, as is what is Porton Down doing in a relatively populated area?
The bottom line is, though, that Hoof and Mouth is not a very real issue to begin with! Given vaccinations, the meat will be fine. That being said, I don't eat, or rarely eat red meat. It just offends my senses, but if you are going to, that at least make it meat from a realistic source, not from factory farms.
It is just immoral to me, to see animals slaughtered wholesale. These are mammals...our cousins!
And some of the tripe (if you pardon the expression) I'm reading in the UK newspapers boggles me even further.
For God's sakes, stop the charade! Allow these animals to develop their own resistance, as hoofed animals do in Nature. Most of the world *does not give a flying fug* about whether the animals carry anitbodies to Hoof and Mouth or not.
Now Bird Flu, there is a concern, but notice also how it never did turn into a 'world-wide pandemic'. But there again, people were *living* with their animals, in terrible conditions. This is *inviting* diseases to jump species, just as putting a lab right in the middle of a farming area is.
Btw, not only will Merial not face consequences, they get to make a tidy sum from producing the shots. The contract was just signed.
How convenient..... |
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Thoughtful
| 06 Aug '07 20:24 : 0 recs
I bet ssaines that the accountants are moving the assets around in case they get sued!
Then again it has to be proven, anyway why place a lab doing foot and mouth vaccine research in an agricultural area?
Or is that a silly question? |
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ssaines
| 06 Aug '07 16:44 : 0 recs
T'ful writes:Anyway the vaccine should sell well, how much will they be fined for causing the outbreak?
Here's betting: nothing! Denial, denial, denial.... |
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Thoughtful
| 06 Aug '07 07:04 : 0 recs
Excellent posts ssaines.
Watching the media Sky News makes out that the government were incompetent, meanwhile the BBC sings the praises of how the crises was handled!
Yep! It all depends on what hymn sheet they are singing from!
Anyway the vaccine should sell well, how much will they be fined for causing the outbreak? |
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ssaines
| 06 Aug '07 05:09 : 0 recs
Reading the Brit broadsheets, I'm very troubled by this very self-serving piece at the Telegraph:
Sir Brian Follett chaired a Government inquiry into the 2001 foot and mouth outbreak:
[...]Until the 2001 outbreak, the public accepted the culls as a necessary strategy. However, within a couple of days the country had suffered the equivalent of 50 outbreaks, which would have overwhelmed any country. It was truly terrifying.
The result we all know: the Government used a slaughter policy which culled millions of animals. That, along with a similar strategy in the Netherlands, led to considerable public unease: why couldn't the animals be vaccinated and live?
The reasons are not simple, despite what is often said, but in the inquiry I chaired for the Government it became clear that the public was not satisfied with only a mass slaughter policy.
Fortunately vaccines are now available that allow scientists to distinguish between animals that have been vaccinated from those that have been vaccinated and become infected. Therefore, it is possible to avoid mass slaughter.
Should the current outbreak not be confined to a relatively small number of farms (where it is sensible to use a slaughter policy) and starts to develop into an epidemic then the Government will be faced with a decision to use emergency vaccination around the outbreak sites.[...]
Foot and mouth: Right action has been taken
That's not my recollection of events at all!
I was in Somerset and Devon at the time pointing out to cynics that there were far better ways of dealing with the situation. The nation was hysterical on the matter, and a good part of that was not because "it became clear that the public was not satisfied with only a mass slaughter policy". Much of the nation was abhorred by the mass culling and burning pyres. It was an obscenity!
But let's get back to what was know at that time, and let's set the record straight:
Tuesday October 30, 2001
[...]Arguments against vaccination in Britain, notably from the food industry are strongly challenged by the Dutch. When the disease emerged in Holland at the end of March, ministers in the Hague gained permission from the EU to vaccinate and cull animals, within 2km zones around infected premises. After 26 cases and the slaughter of 266,000 animals, Holland was on the way to becoming disease free. It has not had an outbreak in six months.
Supporters of vaccination in the UK including leading vets, say the Dutch experience should seriously embarrass Britain, which has slaughtered around 5m animals - many of them healthy. "There is a strong feeling in the Netherlands that this is the last time we should slaughter so many healthy animals," a spokesman for the Dutch agriculture ministry said last night.
Further pressure on the government came with the report of an inquiry into foot and mouth commissioned by Devon county council. It described ministers' response to foot and mouth as "lamentable".
Foot and mouth fight turns to vaccination
Now that was the first hit I got Googling...enough to validate my point, and that is that Foot and Mouth is not only survivable by most animals (it is not that much more serious than Herpes or the Common Cold), it is also *fully legal* to sell that meat displaying anti-bodies in the EU!
It has been for years!
The *real* issue here is not Foot and Mouth, it is the fact, as Merlin intimated, that the UK handles these situations so poorly, and if this got loose, what else can? Something far more sinister than Foot and Mouth!
Meantime, if Merial had produced "tens of millions" of doses of vaccinations....what were they for? To sit on a shelf?
Hello? Anyone home?
UK meat is getting almost as bad as North Am meat in terms of the chemical loading. It barely meets EU regs as it is. So why the fear of inoculations? That is quite permissible under EU regs.
Most feral animals who come in contact with the virus develop immunity. In Nature, the disease is almost a non0issue. It is rare that any wild herds suffer any meaningful damage. The damage exists in the mind of factory farming. |
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ssaines
| 05 Aug '07 22:40 : 0 recs : edited 1 time : last edit 05 Aug '07 22:47
Contrary to popular misconception, Foot and Mouth is analogous to scabs on apples. It is almost purely a facile condition.
That being said, I must say, I've often wondered when cycling past the Pirbright facilities: "What if something escaped from there?"
Well....
Curiously, I've seen no mention of innoculating the area. Whether the strain escaped or not, it is an absolute match, and the shots should be most effective.
Notice that there are no burning pyres this time? As if it wasn't obscene enough, it was incredibly stupid. Anyone with the most basic of understanding would state that it almost inevitably spreads it, not destroys it. Burning must be controlled, contained and at high temperature to destroy the organism, otherwise, being so easily airborne, particles of soot are perfect vehicles to transmit it.
At least they seem to have learned a few things....
Edit: Ming, just read your link. I won't add comment at this point, save that Merial is a US Company! |
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Merlin
| 05 Aug '07 22:18 : 0 recs
Why on earth are we permitting live disease in densly populated areas ? |
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MingToo
| 05 Aug '07 21:40 : 0 recs
Was it the CIA again ?
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